- Transcript # Janae Daniels: From Public School Teacher to Unschooling Advocate ### *OpenEd Podcast - Ela Richmond & Janae Daniels* --- ## Timestamped Outline **00:52** - From Public School Teacher to Homeschool Convert **03:14** - The Divine Intervention to Homeschool **08:10** - Discovering Attachment Psychology & Why It Matters **13:20** - The Intentional Separation of Kids from Parents in Public School **17:11** - The Line-Dancing Epiphany: What Parent-Oriented Teens Look Like **21:18** - The First Day of Homeschool Was a Disaster **27:57** - The Diary of Anne Frank: When Learning Becomes Real **31:40** - Hacking High School: How Her Kids Thrived Without the Traditional Path **43:44** - The Unspoken Gift of Boredom **50:25** - How Homeschooling Transformed Their Family Culture **01:01:11** - Rapid Fire: Best Resources & Advice for Homeschooling Teens --- ## Polished Transcript **Ela Richmond:** Welcome back to the Open Ed podcast.I'm joined by Janae Daniels, who has a fascinating story.She pulled her kids just before high school, a later decision than most.She came from the public school world as a K-12 licensed teacher.So Janae, what happened? How do you get to the point where you're about to enter high school and suddenly decide to go down this path you've never considered? **Janae Daniels:** It was not intentional.We are COVID converts.My oldest two kids graduated from public school, and as a former public middle school teacher, I was against homeschooling.I believed all the propaganda.I knew a couple of homeschoolers in high school and thought they were weird.So it was never on my radar.Then COVID hit.The end of the 2020 school year was okay; I felt bad for the teachers struggling with online classes.But as summer went on, I ran into my kids' middle school principal at Target and asked what was happening for the fall.He had no idea. A couple of weeks later, I was in church, and this thought came into my head: "I want you to homeschool the kids." I thought, "hard no." Then it came again: "It's taken a pandemic.I want you to homeschool the kids." I believe in divine intervention, so I went home and called the three people I knew who homeschooled.I cried most of the afternoon, but the thought wouldn't go away.I went to my husband and said, "What if we homeschooled the kids?" He said, "I always thought it would be great, but I figured you didn't want to.We could try it.If it doesn't work out, just put them back in." The next day, I researched how to homeschool in Colorado, and on Tuesday, I submitted my notice of intent.I was shaking.I went in person, and they just took the paper and shut the door.That was it.A month later, we had our first day, which was a disaster. **Ela Richmond:** What did your friends tell you on those calls? What made you finally say yes? **Janae Daniels:** I couldn't shake that call.That was the biggest factor.I had to honor what was on my heart because my mom's intuition is never wrong.When I called people, I asked why they started and why they kept homeschooling.They all said it's hard, but the relationship with their kids became paramount.They loved watching their children blossom.One friend said, "I don't trust the government with a lot of things, so why would I trust them with my children?" But the biggest thing was that all of them said the relationship with their kids was better than they ever dreamed.That led me to learn about attachment psychology and the work of Dr.Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté, who wrote *Hold On To Your Kids*. I learned about peer versus parent orientation—who a child goes to for nurturing.Historically, it was parents, not peers.This is a recent phenomenon.The school system has played into that, separating kids from parents for 16,000 hours during their formative years.That blew me away.I realized my kids could be attached to me; that's the natural order. **Ela Richmond:** That's fascinating.A 12-year-old homeschooler told me her favorite thing about it is the time she spends with her family.She sees her public-schooled friends don't have the same close relationships with their parents.It's become something we just accept.Why do you think it's become so normal for families not to be together? **Janae Daniels:** I used to love the public school system, but the more I've delved into its history with Horace Mann, John Dewey, and John D.Rockefeller, the more I see the nefarious intentionality.There was a push to separate children from their parents.Cuberly, the Dean of the Stanford School for Education, essentially said the more they can separate kids from parents, the more kids will rely on the government.It was intentional.That's not to say public school kids can't have good relationships with their parents, but it's tougher.As parents, we get the worst hours of the day—the morning rush and the tired evenings.We don't get their best hours. Can I share a story? My kids' homeschool enrichment program had a fall festival.The teenage girls were teaching line dances.My 15-year-old daughter said, "Mom, let's do this!" In that room, all the girls were saying, "Mom, stand next to me!" Not one was ashamed of their mom.It was beautiful.A couple of weeks later, a friend came over for dinner and started crying because her teenage daughter wanted nothing to do with her.She said, "I guess it's just normal teenage behavior, right?" I handed her *Hold On To Your Kids* and said, "You can get your daughter's heart back." As Dr.Neufeld says, "We cannot parent children whose heart we don't have." She worked so hard, and now she has her daughter's heart back.We are meant to be their compass point. **Ela Richmond:** That quote is so powerful.You started homeschooling when your kids were about to enter high school.Did you have their hearts then? **Janae Daniels:** It was a rough ride with our oldest two.But for the next four, I had the heart of my four-year-old and eight-year-old, but I could see I was losing my 12 and 13-year-olds.When we started homeschooling, I could see I was getting their hearts back.But our first week was a disaster.I was still in a public school teacher mindset, with a detailed schedule and tons of expensive curriculums.An hour in, everyone was in tears.My 13-year-old son said, "We're going back to school.Just put us back." I was ready to agree. Then there was a knock at the door; the piano tuner had arrived.I let him in and went back downstairs to find the kids refusing to do anything.One by one, they went upstairs until I was alone.I went up to find all four of them surrounding the piano tuner, totally mesmerized as he explained sound frequencies and the geometry of octaves.They asked thoughtful, deep questions.For two hours, they watched him.And I realized I needed to rethink education. I put away all the curriculums except for math, reading, and writing.For the next several months, we focused on the basics, read aloud, and spent time in nature.My kids had so much free time.My son picked up a guitar and taught himself to play from YouTube.My eight-year-old learned Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata the same way.My daughter started devouring books.I saw their love of learning come back. Several months later, my daughter was reading books about World War II.She picked up *The Diary of Anne Frank* and came downstairs sobbing.She said, "She was real, Mom.This happened." She started making real-world connections on her own.Later, at church, she talked to a friend who had just read the book for school and found it "so boring." My daughter came home and said, "Mom, where is the humanity?" She recognized she was learning humanity.By this time, we had moved into more of an unschooling model.My perspective shifted so drastically.I started asking, why do they have to take Algebra 2? Do they even need biology? Could there be a better way? By freshman and sophomore year, they started concurrent enrollment.I was worried, but they both made the president's list.My daughter said, "I realized as long as I just jump through the hoops the teacher tells me to, I get an A." My son, after a business class, asked, "Why would I take business advice from a professor who's never run a business?" That shifted how we did high school.We became more child-focused.My now 18-year-old interned with a YouTuber with 4 million subscribers.He learned everything from film editing to writing proposals to NASA.He said he learned more in those months than in a semester of his business class.He has job offers waiting for him.He never finished Algebra 2, but he tested out of it for college.There's more than one road to Rome. **Ela Richmond:** That's so perfect.It sounds like the reason high school is so scary is because of all the expectations we put on ourselves.You outsourced for things you didn't know and were critical about whether they actually needed it.What's your thought on that? **Janae Daniels:** A lot of it depends on what Stephen Covey says: "Begin with the end in mind." What's the end goal for your family? They need to know how to read, write, and do basic math.I don't care if they ever learn the intercept formula.If a child is geared mathematically, great.But what is the end goal? Is it college? We need to keep those doors open.But lots of roads lead to Rome.I interviewed a former Harvard professor who was a high school dropout.He went to a college that accepted everybody, graduated with top honors, and went to Harvard for his PhD.Society would say he was a failure, yet he found a different road.If your child loves the trades, how do we prepare them for that? My 13-year-old wants to be a plumber because AI can't take that job.So today, he's in his construction academy class.The end goal becomes the guiding light. **Ela Richmond:** I love the emphasis on what doors you want to keep open.It's more about opening doors than anything else.I want to steer this toward family culture.It sounds like your kids are very bought-in.Most kids are not doing that.How do you steer them toward this? **Janae Daniels:** We are not an anti-technology family, but I do put limits on video games.I talk to them about being creators versus consumers.It's okay to consume sometimes, but we are meant to be creators.In the beginning, my kids did a lot of sitting around getting bored.I was panicky.But boredom leads to brilliance.When they were so bored with nothing to do, that's when my daughter started to read, and my son picked up the guitar.We've overbooked our kids and robbed them of the gift of boredom.That's where genius happens.It also gives them time to reflect.My 18-year-old told me, "Mom, I realized what I liked and didn't like during the hours where I had time to just think.You have blessed me with the gift to think." If I could tell any parent anything, it's to simplify your schedule and give your kids time to think and reflect. **Ela Richmond:** What is the culture that you and your husband embody? It sounds like you're always creating. **Janae Daniels:** As we've done our homeschooling journey, it has shifted things for us.My husband used to run a large real estate brokerage.He has since really slowed down.I was running my own small business hiring company and realized I really hate hiring.I ended up podcasting.Our kids have watched us go through a transformation where we asked what's most important.Spending time as a family, for one.My husband realized he needed to slow down.We've learned we have to slow way, way down.We expect our kids to work hard and contribute.But the biggest thing is that we as parents have to slow down.The things we thought were important are not that important. **Ela Richmond:** It sounds like there's this emphasis on creating, but not pursuing things for pride or greed.You're creating in a way that is mission-aligned.It's interesting because you say you're not moving that fast, but to everyone else, it probably seems like you are. **Janae Daniels:** It's intentional.We try to eliminate the unessential.I'm not a minimalist, but there is truth to that principle.Our values just changed.We do less, but we try to do it well. **Ela Richmond:** Kids are very attuned to whether you're living with integrity.I think one of the best gifts you can give your kids is to show them what good looks like while they are young so that they have an appetite for it when they are older.When they stray, it's much easier for them to name that something is not good and they know what to do next. **Janae Daniels:** Thank you.And they've watched us flounder too.They've watched the good, the bad, and the ugly.And now they get to see most of the good.Homeschooling will bring out the worst in you, but it also brings out the best.It puts a mirror up to you.My kids have learned to call me out on stuff, which I don't love, but it's good for me. **Ela Richmond:** I love it.Two rapid-fire questions.Number one, what is the best resource for subjects you're not an expert in? **Janae Daniels:** I look for alternatives, whether that's YouTube, OpenEd, a college class, or a co-op.My kids wanted to learn French, so we hired a reasonably priced French tutor for six months.You just have to get resourceful.There's a lot of free stuff out there from universities or places like OpenEd where somebody else can teach. **Ela Richmond:** Second question. What is your best advice for homeschool families starting the journey later, when their kids are older? **Janae Daniels:** The very first thing you have to focus on is the relationship. That has to come before everything else. It's a long and painful process, but once you have that relationship intact, helping them navigate the future is so much easier. If you don't have their heart, you will not be in their future. Everything else is second to the relationship. The second thing is to let them go through the de-schooling process. The teenagers coming out of the system are exhausted. Help them de-school, gain their humanity and confidence back, and work through any trauma. It all goes back to the relationship. **Ela Richmond:** Dang, this has been an incredible episode. Thank you so much. Where can people find you? **Janae Daniels:** You can go to my YouTube channel at [School to Homeschool](https://www.youtube.com/channel/SchoolToHomeschool), and my podcast, School to Homeschool, is on all major platforms. You can also email me at [schooltohomeschool1@gmail.com](mailto:schooltohomeschool1@gmail.com). **Ela Richmond:** This has been amazing. Thank you so much. **Janae Daniels:** Thank you. Thank you so much for your time. -