## Timestamped Outline **00:00** - Welcome and Deborah's Journey to Music Education **02:06** - Southern Oregon School of Music's Grand Reopening **03:21** - Why Parents Put Kids in Music (The Research) **04:18** - The Trumpet Regret: When Quitting Is the Wrong Answer **08:55** - Never Quit at the Frustration Point **12:35** - Music and Brain Development: The Corpus Callosum **26:31** - Piano as the Foundation Instrument **34:01** - The Piano-to-Bass Discovery Journey **38:20** - The Social Glue: Community Creates Persistence **42:45** - Trial Lessons and Finding the Right Teacher Ela Richmond (00:00.738) Welcome back to the Open Ed podcast. I'm your sometimes host Ela, and today I'm joined by Deborah Pratt. I'm very excited because she's going to talk about music from the lens of a homeschool family. She teaches a lot of homeschool students all kinds of music lessons. First, welcome to the podcast. I would love to hear your story, how you got involved in this. It sounds like you're pretty passionate about what you do. Deb Pratt (00:28.622) I am. It's a long story, so I won't go into all the details. I went to school for vocal music education and got my bachelor's degree with the intent of becoming a high school choral conductor. But life happened, and it didn't go in that direction. Then I thought I'd try again, so I got my master's degree in music education. While I was in my master's program, I saw an ad on the bulletin board for Kinder Music teachers. I thought, I'm also licensed to teach elementary school. This could really be good because I love little kids and I love music. I looked into it, became a licensed Kinder Music educator, and started a small Kinder Music program back in Iowa where I was. Then we moved to Oregon and I continued that. It's gone through a bunch of iterations. I did a music retail store for a while and had 150 students and five teachers and all kinds of lessons. Then it was just too much for me at the time. Retail is really demanding. So I sold that and eventually came back to reinvigorate the Kinder Music program because it had become nothing there. It grew to the place where I needed to move because we were too big for their location. That's how I got to our current spot. We've been here since 2018. Just last week we had a grand reopening with a new name, Southern Oregon School of Music, and we now have 172 students. It's pretty exciting for me. Ela Richmond (02:41.516) That is super exciting. I want to segue into the homeschool world. We serve a lot of homeschool families. This was my story, but my mom always thought it would be amazing for me to do piano. She put me in and I didn't stick with it. What is the initial motivation most of the time for families choosing to do music? How do you see that cycle? Because I know a lot of people get into it. They're like, my kid's going to love this, then sometimes they don't. Do you have any tips for families to keep their kids in it, keep their kids interested in music education if they're interested? Deb Pratt (03:21.645) I can't speak to why parents put their kids in music. They don't usually tell me. They just bring them. But I know there's so much research about how good music is for development and academic learning. I think that research has gotten out. It's just something that is so part of everyday life. Personally I think everybody should take music. And I could get into why that is. But your question was my advice for parents to keep their kids in music. There are so many different personalities with kids. Some love to play at home and practice and it just becomes part of who they are. But not all kids are that way. A lot of teachers would say they have to practice. They have to practice. And practice is important. But I'll give you a little story that changed my perspective. I have a daughter who was in high school taking trumpet for band. I got her private lessons and she didn't practice. I was flabbergasted and embarrassed. Here I am a music teacher and my daughter is not practicing. I told her, if you don't practice, there's no point in lessons if you don't practice. So I had her stop lessons. She was probably 30 or 35, and she said to me, I really wish you'd let me continue to take lessons because I could be playing today if you had let me keep playing. I felt really bad about it and thought more about it. Honestly, just taking lessons keeps a child in it even if they're not practicing at home. Of course you always want to encourage that and there's a lot to how to set things up at home, how to help your child practice. But that hard line, practice or you're going to quit, I don't think is the answer. Maybe being a little—the thing I would say is talk to your child's teacher and find out if there's anything you can do to help at home or maybe the songs are a little too hard for them. I would talk to the teacher and try to come up with a plan to help them stay in it. That being said, there are a few cases where the kids just—it's too soon or they don't have the—there are exceptions, but I think in general, just being aware that just the lessons themselves are valuable. Ela Richmond (06:54.698) Yeah, I find this very valuable and interesting. Something that Matt Bowman says, who's the founder of OpenEd, he gets asked a lot: if my kid is super interested in one topic, is that something that I should be afraid of? If my kid is super into the ocean, and I know that they need to be doing science and reading and there are all these other checkboxes—should I be pulling them away from the thing that they're very interested in to allow them to go really deep into this thing that they love? He always says, as a parent, you can't undervalue the importance of learning to go deep on something. I think that's what you're speaking to, where I did the same thing. I told my mom, I wish you would have kept me in piano because at a certain point I just was like, I don't really care about piano. But being able to go deep in something, being able to master something and have a really amazing skill—I think that's the thing that everybody looks at music and is like, it'd be so cool if I had this amazing skill. Same with everything else. If your parent has this amazing skill in baking or something really niche, usually a couple of generations down the daughter or son of that parent is like, man, I wish I would have learned alongside them. I think that's really valuable. Maybe it doesn't have to be music, but I think for a lot of people, music is a really cool and unique way to build this skill of being able to master something and go deep and see the fruit of your labor over time. Deb Pratt (08:55.489) Probably like any skill, you hit points where you feel frustrated. You master the beginnings of it, you go along and it's nice, and then all of a sudden, now you have to play with both hands. Or now they're asking you to do something else and the child gets frustrated and wants to quit. I would always say, don't ever allow your child to quit in that moment. Encourage them, help them, find a way to help them through that one thing and then give it some time and see if they're still not liking it. A lot of times they've just hit a spot where they have to step it up and it's frustrating and hard. But it won't stay that way if they persist in it. The other thing is with practicing, children are not going to practice on their own. I know parents now more than when I was young—they want their child to want to do it. They don't want to force their child to do something. But in life, we have to learn to do things that we don't want to do. I think this is one case where if you set the expectation, it's just like homework. If your child came home and said, I don't feel like doing my math homework, would you say, oh, OK, if you don't want to do it? We wouldn't say that with math homework or even when you're homeschooling, there are things you just have to do. If you stand firm, kindly and firm, and say this is part of your homework, you need to practice, and if you make that consistent, eventually that just becomes part of homework. Because a lot of it is often a practice issue. Ela Richmond (11:05.774) Yeah. I had this conversation recently where somebody was saying that their parent forced them to learn something. As an adult, they don't even like the thing that their parents forced them to learn. Maybe it was clarinet. It's like, I can play the clarinet, and I really actually still don't like it. But they were saying that because of these micro moments, these skills that their parent made them master, it concretized in their mind this idea that I can do anything, period. Even if I don't like it, even if I don't necessarily want to—they have this skill now. I think that's wildly valuable. Deb Pratt (11:47.511) Such an important lesson. Ela Richmond (12:01.196) That is the cycle. Somebody puts their kid into music and then their kid doesn't like it anymore. So they're like, okay, well maybe we're gonna stick to something else. Maybe we're gonna stick to sports or something that they seem to like more. Part of the issue is that you can only do so much in a day. I grew up with three brothers. My parents going out of their way to put me into piano was not worth it anymore whenever I really did not enjoy it. What is your thought on that? I know we have a lot more tools at our disposal. We have online options. It has become easier to continue with the habit. Let's say in a hypothetical world, for two years I was going to piano school and then my parents were like, okay, you don't seem that committed anymore, but we still want you to do this. You still need to keep up with something. Maybe I get good at it eventually and then want to go back to piano school. I could see a cycle in mastering anything, in getting good at anything. There's usually this cycle of I don't like it. Oh wait, I like it now. Oh wait, this getting hard again, I don't know if I like it. How would you help? Are there any tips or tricks that parents can use to help their kids continue even whenever it's difficult or whenever it's like, I really don't want to do this, there are constraints at our home? I would say most people can look at a music instrument and say, it'd be cool if I could play that. Deb Pratt (13:38.434) Well, you have to be sensitive to your child too. I wouldn't—maybe for some people music just isn't their thing. I'm not saying that in every case you should force your child to stick with it. But look at, is it because they've hit a hard spot? That happens. Are you teaching your child, well, if I hit something hard, then I just will do something different? Or are you teaching your child, well, I've hit something hard, I'm going to press through this and conquer this? Again, then if they still really don't like it, that's a different thing. You're looking at a different issue. I think it's important to have a great relationship, talk to your child and understand where they're coming from and who they are. I think it's great to try different things, especially at the younger ages when you have a little more time and the schoolwork isn't as demanding as high school and middle school. At some point, if you want to get really good and really master something, you have to make a choice. You can't do sports and music and gymnastics and dance. But you should try them all out and stick with them long enough to actually accomplish something in it. Maybe I would say a year at least in something so that you're going through the difficult things and you're pushing through. A lot of times what I suggest for a parent is they require a full school year of something like piano. Yes you can take piano but if you take it you're going to stick with it for this entire school year. Then we can talk about it next year if you want to continue that or if you want to try something else. Because if you just do a month or two and say, I don't like it, you don't really know if you like it or not yet. You haven't gone through enough of it to get a sense of what it's like to have mastered something in it. I think that would be true of anything, sports or gymnastics or music. Ela Richmond (16:10.774) I would agree. I'm curious what your take is on what a good music lesson looks like. There are tons of people selling different classes and different lessons. It is also possible that your kid just doesn't like it because it doesn't suit them. It doesn't work for them. That teacher's method, that approach, whatever it is, it's just not right for them. What in your mind is a good way to figure that out? Deb Pratt (16:36.718) Our goal is to lay a strong foundation that can go for any style of music, but also to find out, what's your favorite style? What's your favorite music? And to include some of that in the lessons. We use method books, but we also regularly bring in music that they want to learn. I think that's a real—I would look for that if I was looking for a teacher for my child. Are they going to be—and I think—I went to school young, when I was very young, it was not as flexible as it is now. I think you would find that in most music teachers now. But I think it's an important thing to ask about. Ela Richmond (17:36.972) Out of curiosity, what is the best way to start introducing music to kids? There's throwing them into a class and letting somebody else introduce it to them. But there's also just creating a culture of music inside of your family, having musical instruments laying around and seeing somebody play a musical instrument. Are there any things that you consistently see young kids really gravitating toward or enjoying whenever you're first starting to introduce music to them? Deb Pratt (18:08.334) Well before I answer that I have to say if you have a Kinder Music program or a Music Together program or a Music Garden program—there are several of them. I think Kinder Music is by far the best but that's because I teach it, but they're all valuable. It's a mommy and me, daddy and me program doing music with your children and that's just a fun way to do it because especially some people, I don't know enough songs to play with—I don't know what to do with my child. But doing music together with your children in a fun way, music games, playing along with—even if it's just your favorite music, get some egg shakers or fill a Tupperware with some rice and shake to the music. You can find things around your house. Use a wooden spoon and a Tupperware for a drum. But dancing to music together, playing those simple instruments or homemade things along with music, singing songs together. Again, for some families, I came from a musical family and we would sing Christmas songs together at Christmas and my dad played the ukulele and my mom played the piano. I was surrounded by that. But if you don't have those skills yourself, something like Kinder Music or one of those other programs is just a huge resource. Ela Richmond (19:49.282) I really like that. It's funny. I think part of it is also as you get older, you gravitate toward what your friends are doing. If you don't have friends that are musically inclined—my family is very musical. However, none of my siblings and I are musical except for one. The one that is actually had a really cool, awesome community that he built inside the band program. Then he started learning a lot of instruments because his friends were there. Something that is also sticking out to me is just the importance of community, especially in the conversations I've been having. When it comes to kids' motivation, there are some things that kids are just entirely self-directed to do, they will do on their own and they'll enjoy it. But there's a lot where embracing the suck, keeping going even though it's really hard, it takes something else and sometimes that is social pressure and that's actually a really good thing. To find communities also where your kids can make friends and want to stick with it because that's where their friends are. They're doing music, but they're really just hanging out with their friends. I feel like that's also a really good method for families to find if they want their kids to stick with it and if it's something that their kids are interested in. Deb Pratt (21:14.776) Yeah, that's another advantage of the Kinder Music program is you come in and you join a community that's together. It's the same group. That's one of the things Kinder Music is really—we don't allow drop-ins because we want a community that learns together and gets to know each other and the kids make friends. That's actually how we grew to be a music school. We started with Kinder Music and then when they left Kinder Music, we took the whole group into a piano class. Then of course they move on to private lessons. It's that community that really is motivating. That's one of the joys of music is to do it with other people. That's really our goal, even with our private lessons, is to get them to a place where they can collaborate with each other on a new level, like be part of a band or be part of a choral group. Ela Richmond (22:24.532) I like that actually. I think that's a good note. Music is inherently very social. Yes, you can be the lone musician that's doing a lot of things all at once. There are different technologies, things that allow you to loop, that make it possible to be one musician doing a lot of things all at once. But inherently, there's a band. And there are harmonies. There's a lot going on with music that allows you to create something together with other people and I feel like that is definitely the magic inside of it. I really like that. Because music is inherently social, maybe from the beginning, thinking about it as a social tool for your kid as well. I like that a lot. Deb Pratt (23:18.606) That's really true, but it's also something that's really valuable as an individual. I remember in high school, I played the guitar and sang. That was my thing. We had a dysfunctional family, is the way to put it. There was a lot of stress, relational stresses. I would—I got through it because I would sing and play my guitar. I'd go up to my room and I could get out all my feelings and all my frustrations. After I would have a session of singing and playing, I'd be okay. I could come back. So it's social and it's also emotionally really valuable, especially for the teen years. That's when you're trying to figure out how to relate and how to work with your emotions. Yeah, it's on both sides. Music just—as you mentioned that you got the idea that I was passionate about it, I really am because music is amazing. It's the only thing they found, at least the last time I checked the research, the only thing they found that actually the whole brain lights up when you do it. It uses the entire brain. The section between your two sides of your brain called the corpus callosum, it's larger in musicians. It actually helps with the structure of your brain. Social, emotional, physical development, persistence and self-confidence—there's just not a whole lot of things that music doesn't help with. That's why I said I really think it would be great if all kids could have music. I know our local school district here—I know you serve homeschool families which is awesome. But our local school district has music three times a week. I think that's amazing. If you're homeschooling and you don't have access to that, doing something like Kinder Music and lessons—we have a choir that people can join, which doesn't really require practice at home at all. Getting into music somewhere as a homeschool family, I think just would be really important. It helps with math and literacy. If your child is struggling with either of those areas, music can make a big difference. It uses those parts of the brain without having to figure out the math. It doesn't give you the math, but it exercises those parts of the brain. So it's just valuable. Ela Richmond (26:31.83) I really like that. What would you recommend? I've seen different approaches. Would you recommend that somebody chooses an instrument and takes classes in that or tries out a ton of instruments and then decides? Because I've seen people do both. But then I could also see the possible negative is you choose, say, the flute, you try it, you really don't like it. And then you say, I'm quitting because I don't like music. Deb Pratt (27:01.998) Well, I generally recommend starting with a year of piano because no other instrument lays out the structure of music like the piano does. If you learn the piano even just basically how to read music using the piano, it gives your brain something to attach all those music concepts to visually. Not that you couldn't start with guitar or some other instrument if you're passionate and you want that, that's fine. But if you have piano, an understanding of the basics of piano, I would think you would progress faster in any instrument because you've got that basic concept first. Ela Richmond (27:52.642) You know what, that makes so much sense. I learned on the piano first and after that, there was a period where I tried to take up the guitar and I tried to take up all these other things. Just visualizing the piano keys in my head, it was so much easier because it is a straight line. It's just white, black. It's so structured that it makes it actually quite simple. I love that perspective. Deb Pratt (28:15.756) Right? Yeah. The structure of the musical scale is built into the piano. Whereas on the guitar or any other instrument, the notes are kind of all equal. And you can't see the structure of it. Even when I'm teaching someone guitar, I will go to the piano and I'll say, look at this. This is how this works. Because you can see it there. Ela Richmond (28:51.702) And you can hear it and it's so easy. You just push a button instead of having to figure out your hand movement. It's literally you just push. Deb Pratt (29:01.014) Yeah, well each instrument has its own challenges. The piano is complex. You're playing more than one note at a time. You do with the guitar too, but yeah, they each have their own challenge. Ela Richmond (29:13.366) It's different. It's very different. I love that perspective. Let's say that a parent is like, OK, I want to start figuring out what my kid is interested in. You'd say start on the piano. Then how do they start looking to other instruments? Deb Pratt (29:32.231) I can't speak for other places, but what we do is we offer trial lessons. Most places will do that. We charge $10 for a trial lesson, which normally would be a lot more than that. Some places do free trials, some do more, but usually they'll give you a really good break on a trial lesson. That's just to come and have one lesson on the instrument and just see, do you enjoy holding it? I remember sitting down because I have my degree in music, I had to take lessons on a great variety of instruments. I remember sitting down with this one instrument, the French horn, went, this is awesome, which I didn't feel that way about all the other ones. I did take horn lessons for about 10 years. But they might have that kind of experience just sitting down with it. Ela Richmond (30:35.31) That's an amazing idea. That's probably a good way to test. You start with piano, and then maybe look around your area. Where are there some amazing music areas, music studios? Then secondarily, maybe you take two different types of guitar lessons as trial at different studios, because you might like one instructor over another. That's a great idea. Deb Pratt (30:57.73) Right? We would always be happy to have people do a trial at more than one teacher if they wanted to do that. I can't speak for other places, if they didn't, maybe you wouldn't find that to be a good fit. Because you want somebody who's going to care about you and want you to find the right thing. And I should say, if a child already knows what instrument they want to try, I would let them do that one. I wouldn't say, no, you have to do the piano first. Because they can learn on any instrument. I'm just saying if you don't have a clue, that's a good place to start. But if a child goes, I just want to play the drums, then that would probably be an indication that drum lessons would be a place to start. Ela Richmond (31:56.162) Yeah. No, that's a great idea. Because I mean, all of this is just discovery. It's discovering your interest, discovering what you could be good at and discovering what's worth mastering. We began this conversation talking about the fact that there are a lot of benefits of choosing to master a musical instrument, to choosing to become a musician. But in this world of music, there are so many options that you can't just throw an option at your kid and say, all right, you're going to become a guitarist. You're going to become a pianist. You're going to become a violinist. It is its own type of discovery to figure out, okay, maybe you have a kid that knows exactly what they want to do. Amazing. Let's do it. But then maybe you have some kids that may not know exactly what they might be interested in and may not know exactly what will light them up, what is worth learning. If music is something that could be interesting for your kids, could be valuable for your kids, finding something that aligns with them, aligns with what they enjoy, aligns with their personality, that's a really cool thing because there are so many options. I think the most common three always come up. It's piano, guitar, drums. That's in everybody's head. But whenever you go to a music studio, now you have options for violin and cello and all of these different options. Yeah, I really love that. Deb Pratt (33:32.129) I have a student that started with me when he was eight in a piano class. Then he went to guitar—I teach all these instruments so he was with me. Went to the guitar and played that for a while. Then he went to the ukulele and played that for a while. Then he came back to me and said, you know, I want to go back to piano because I want to learn the notes better so when I play the ukulele I can read the music better. This is over a period of—he started when he was eight and I think he was 14 when he told me that. I had him back in piano and he never practiced much at home. Like I said before, that doesn't bother me because as long as he's still loving his lessons, then I'm all for it. Then one day he said to me, I bought a bass. I said, you did? He said, yeah, and I've just been playing it and playing it. I said, you're playing at home? He said, yeah. I said, you need to take bass lessons. I connected him up with our bass teacher, and he has found his instrument. He's loving it. It's just really fun. He's 16 now, so he's been with me for eight years and he's just now finding what it is. So it may take—it's a process. Ela Richmond (35:17.742) He loved—we had a good relationship. He and I did. We just hit it off. I think he loved coming to class with me. I enjoyed having him. We were able to talk about things that were bothering him. So there was more to it than just the lessons. Any good teacher will probably—it will be there for the student that wants that from any good teacher. I never forced that on him at all. So there was that relationship aspect to it, which really for teaching just in general, if there's no relationship, there's not as much learning. But he did love it. He loved playing the piano. He loved playing the guitar. He really loved the ukulele, but it wasn't until he played the bass. He enjoyed doing repetitive patterns and he liked playing the guitar this way, which is unusual in the ukulele, but that's the bass. The bass is playing patterns and the bass does this and it just fit his physical preferences and his musical preferences. But it took that long to find it. Ela Richmond (36:41.182) This is so awesome. Deb Pratt (36:42.99) But again, if I had been on him about practicing and his parents had required him to practice to have lessons, he would never have reached this. He would come in and I knew he hadn't practiced. He says, well, I didn't practice today. I said, well, that's OK. What do you want to do first? And we would just do whatever it was that he wanted to do. I think that just goes back to the point that I made earlier that that's not always an indicator—you're not practicing isn't always an indicator that it's time to quit. Ela Richmond (37:24.428) I would agree. Okay, I have three rapid fire questions to end our time, which has actually been so fascinating and you've brought up a lot of great points. First question, what is your best advice to young musicians? Deb Pratt (37:40.857) Practice. Yeah, I mean if you're wanting to grow in your musical instrument you have to practice. Some teachers don't even call it practicing—they call it playing which is really what it is. Play, play, play, play, play. Ela Richmond (38:01.85) I love that. That's actually great. There are so many subtle language things. And every time you realize them, you're like, duh. It's called play for a reason. That makes sense. OK, second rapid fire question. What is your best tip for parents to get older kids excited about music? Deb Pratt (38:25.08) To get older kids excited about music? I don't know. I haven't thought about that. Because most kids love music. I guess I would just talk to them and find out what kind of music do you like? Have you ever thought about trying it out? Over time talk to them about it a lot, give them—take them to concerts. Surround them with music, maybe introduce them to someone who's a little bit older than them because they always look up to the older—teens look up to 20 year olds—who is a musician and maybe see if they could jam a little bit on something. Ela Richmond (39:32.79) Nice, I love that. And last question, do you have any ideas for bringing music into the home? Deb Pratt (39:44.45) Well, these days it's just so easy. Find some things on YouTube to watch. There are all kinds of concerts on PBS TV that show the entire concert. Ela Richmond (40:13.238) Yeah, if I'm a parent that really wants my kids to enjoy music and I am thinking about ways that I can surround them with it, ways that I can bring it into their lives, ways that I can just subtly mention it and get them excited about it. What are some ways that I could do that? You mentioned earlier taking them to concerts, but getting them really excited with the idea of what music could be for them. Deb Pratt (40:44.59) Yeah, especially older kids if you just have a keyboard around and a guitar around or ukulele is easier than guitar even. I don't know about drums. You could get a digital drum kit. If you're really wanting to give them just something to try out. The thing is that's not a cheap proposition. That can be an expensive proposition is to bring all these instruments into your home, but you could. Ela Richmond (41:22.7) I love that. That's a great thing. Most of the families in the Open Ed program, a lot of them have used their Open Ed resources to purchase music, to purchase music lessons. Deb, this has been amazing. How can people find you if they would like to? Deb Pratt (41:49.324) Our website is [soschoolofmusic.com](http://soschoolofmusic.com/). We also have a Facebook and Instagram page. SO School of Music is our handle. Ela Richmond (42:05.068) That's awesome. We'll include all of that information in the description as well as in all of the links to the article for this episode. If anybody has any other questions, I'm sure you would be happy to answer them. But this was a phenomenal podcast on music, the value of it and just approaches to how families can bring it into their home, bring it into their kids lives. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Deb Pratt (42:33.602) You're welcome. I can also say you can do an AI chat and just ask, what are the benefits of music lessons? And you'll get all the reasons you would ever want for why it's important for kids. Ela Richmond (42:48.226) That's a great idea. Well, we will kick it off with that. I hope that you all look up what music lessons will do for your kids in AI. If you do, feel free to message us. We'd love to see it. -