- Transcript Rise of Choice - **[06:17]** The Homeschooling Catalyst: When Kindergarten Changed Everything - **[09:45]** The Rebel Within the System: Impacting Kids from the Inside - **[12:12]** An Administrator's Life: More Money, More Problems - **[16:02]** Why Competition Will Save Public Schools - **[23:18]** Becoming the Education Designer: A Proactive Approach - **[29:15]** The Unschooling Playbook: No Master Plan, Just Passion - **[33:23]** Fearless Parenting: Why We Weren't Afraid to Break the Rules - **[38:05]** Breaking the Box: Why the World Needs Problem-Solvers - **[41:10]** The Future is Flexible: Final Thoughts --- ## [00:25] The Accidental Teacher: An FBI Dream Deferred **Ela Richmond:** Welcome back to the Open Ed podcast. I'm your sometimes host, Ela, and today I'm joined by Dave Hoffman. Dave, can you give us a little bit of a background? How did you get started in education? **Dave Hoffman:** I got started in education after studying Spanish and communications with the grand goal of becoming an FBI agent. I took all the tests and got to the final interview with nine agents, but I didn't pass. It was a crazy time, and I thought, "What am I going to do?" I couldn't reapply for a year, so I decided to try teaching while I waited. I never reapplied to the FBI. I just continued to teach and eventually became an administrator. My career started with subbing in Salt Lake City before we moved to Southern California, where I began teaching full-time. --- ## [01:03] A Passion for the Classroom and the Rise of Choice **Ela Richmond:** And why'd you stay in teaching? **Dave Hoffman:** I just love teaching; it's one of my passions. I loved the interaction with the students—they got my humor, and I could joke with them. I couldn't believe I got paid to do it because it was fun every day. Granted, it was emotionally exhausting sometimes, but I'd get off at 3:30, go home in Southern California, and just jump in the pool to de-stress. It was a great time. I coached basketball and water polo and was involved in almost everything you could think of, from being the senior class advisor to a peer tutoring mentor. I pretty much did it all. **Ela Richmond:** And you've also had experience in charter and private schools. What brought you to these different models of education? **Dave Hoffman:** I was raised in public education, and at the time, there was nothing different. But as my own children were getting older, all of these choices started to appear. We realized we could customize education according to our kids' needs, and my wife and I really jumped on board with that. It opened my mind to different areas, and I thought, "Wow, these charter schools are serving a cool purpose." That interest led me to work in charters and private schools. I worked at one charter where I taught at-risk boys from 7th to 12th grade, all in one class. Some were homeless. That was quite an experience; those kids really left an impression on me. Just seeing them get to school in a clean uniform was awesome. We did a lot of hands-on, experiential work with them. So I've been around the block with different kinds of education. And at the same time, I was homeschooling my own kids, which was never really popular with anyone in my professional realm. --- ## [04:35] The Homeschooling Catalyst: When Kindergarten Changed Everything **Ela Richmond:** So why did you decide to homeschool initially? It sounds like your first step into alternative education was driven by an interest in choices. From my experience, most families don't intend to get into this space; it's more that they need other options because something isn't working for their kid. Why were you so intrigued by the idea of options? **Dave Hoffman:** That's a good question. It started with our first daughter. We sent her to a local charter school for kindergarten, run by people we knew. We thought it would be great. But a couple of weeks in, her personality changed quite a bit. She became more aloof, kind of sassy, and we were wondering, "What's going on with our five-year-old?" We visited the school and realized there was nothing about kindergarten we couldn't do at home. Plus, her two younger sisters missed her horribly. We felt we could provide a customized educational plan for our daughter while keeping her best friends—her siblings—with her. So it started there. We put her in first grade the next year, the same thing happened, and we thought, "Okay, we can do this first-grade stuff, too." It just kept going. That got my mind going. Education isn't just about going to a school, listening to bells, and doing homework that might not be meaningful. I thought about my own education, and I couldn't remember hardly anything significant that changed me. Relationships did, and my efforts in athletics did, but on an academic level, I couldn't remember anything unless I had done something, gone somewhere, or built something meaningful. We realized there are so many ways to educate. We started reading books, attending conferences, and supplementing with so many different things. We became the biggest unschoolers that ever existed, even as I went to a school every day with bells, rules, and conveyor-belt learning. --- ## [08:15] The Rebel Within the System: Impacting Kids from the Inside **Ela Richmond:** It seems almost contradictory. If I were a teacher next to you, I'd be confused. You were doing something so different at work than you were at home. Why the different approaches? **Dave Hoffman:** For a few reasons. First, I felt I could still have a positive impact on kids in the classroom because my classroom was way different than the average one. Kids loved coming to my class. My work became very impactful, and I know it did from the letters I'd get from parents and students years later. I felt it was part of my mission. I was great at communicating and persuading kids to learn Spanish, and I made it the most fun class it could be while still learning a ton. We did things out of the ordinary. I was always behind the other teachers, and they'd say, "Hey, you're not on this chapter." I'd say, "I know, because we did this other activity that was more meaningful, and they know how to speak better because of it." So I was a bit of a rebel in the public school system, even while teaching in it. At home, I didn't get a lot of flack for homeschooling. It was becoming more common. In fact, as I studied it, I learned that public school teachers and administrators homeschool their own kids at a higher rate than the general population. They see the other side and think, "Hey, I can provide better options for my kids, and I'm going to." So, it worked out great. --- ## [10:44] An Administrator's Life: More Money, More Problems **Ela Richmond:** That's awesome. And then you ended up moving to Utah at some point. Where does that fit into the story? **Dave Hoffman:** We moved around quite a bit because we homeschooled and we could. I could get a job anywhere. If we decided we wanted to move somewhere, I'd go there in the summer, interview, and have three or four job offers. We went from California to Colorado Springs, and I got offered jobs at all four districts I interviewed with. We were just on an adventure, seeing the country. In some places, we had five acres and a farmhouse; in others, we were in city neighborhoods. It was part of our kids' education. Eventually, we came back to Utah and, funnily enough, settled in my wife's quaint little hometown. **Ela Richmond:** At a certain point, you started doing administrative work. What were you trying to change or impact in those roles? **Dave Hoffman:** First of all, I was pursuing more money because I had to support six kids and a wife as a single-income family. Administration was the way to do it. But I also felt I could have a larger effect on the whole student body, not just the 150 kids in my classroom each year. And that did happen. I hosted assemblies, I spoke, and I was able to be more of an influence. However, I disliked my administrative time because the majority of the work was negative. You have so many stakeholders to please, and it seemed like parents were always a little miffed. I had hard, emotional, negative meetings with parents. Teachers were always going AWOL on me, griping and crying. Then there was student discipline, which takes a ton of time. At one K-8 charter school, I told the board that over 50% of my time was spent on student interaction, but most of it was negative because it was about accountability and discipline. It's heavy, it's hard. At any local high school here in Utah, I dealt with the police on a monthly basis. I had them on speed dial for everything from theft to drugs. You could not believe what goes on in a typical high school, even a great one. Kids will be kids, but even adults... I ended up firing adults for stealing computers and pawning them off. I had to fire a lady for busting into the state reporting system and changing student data. It's just crazy. Affairs between teachers... it was like a soap opera. Dealing with that on an administrative level was heavy and not enjoyable. The great parts were the time with kids at activities, dances, and assemblies, or being in classrooms as an instructional leader. But a lot of the administrative stuff was just heavy and negative. --- ## [16:02] Why Competition Will Save Public Schools **Ela Richmond:** Despite those challenges, you seem very optimistic about where education is headed. Where would you like to see public and traditional charter schools going? **Dave Hoffman:** That's a great question. The fact that there's now choice in where you can send your student—with ESAs and voucher-like systems—is forcing all schools (public, charter, and private) to be the best they can be. They have to offer a product that students and parents actually want. The more that public schools have to participate in a competitive market instead of acting as monopolies, the better the product will be. We'll get more innovative thinking and better educational opportunities. Ultimately, that creativity and innovation will make the jobs of teachers and administrators more fulfilling. If you have a hamburger business next to McDonald's and you sell crappy hamburgers, you're not going to stay in business. Closing a public school here or there isn't a bad thing; it's a great thing, because the other schools will become stronger. They see that kids don't have to come here anymore. Choice is causing real improvement. **Ela Richmond:** I've spoken with people who are very opposed to choice. They argue that when you give people the ability to choose, the most privileged families leave, and everyone else is left to miss out in a failing system. What's your take on that? **Dave Hoffman:** That's very limited thinking. I was accused of that all the time at charter schools—of skimming the cream off the top. But I'll tell you what: 20% of the population at every school I ever administered was special education, with an IEP or 504, just like the public schools. You can't refuse anyone in a public charter school. If a parent says, "I want the small class size, the leadership program, the service element for my child," you take that child and help them rise to the occasion. So I don't buy that choice skims the cream. Obviously, those with more means can afford private school, but charter schools are free. And there are unique charters for every need: for pregnant teens, for special education, for autism, for STEM, for leadership. They're built to be a special magnet that attracts you. Furthermore, programs like the Utah Fits All ESA are leveling the playing field. They're taking government funds to help the average family afford private school or other alternatives. For 27 years, I homeschooled my kids and never got a dime of public money, but I paid my taxes just like everyone else. ESAs give every family a chance to find the right fit. --- ## [23:18] Becoming the Education Designer: A Proactive Approach **Ela Richmond:** I've seen this move toward a consumer view of education, where parents can mix and match to create a custom-built experience. How can parents start thinking of themselves as "education designers" instead of just dropping their kids off? **Dave Hoffman:** The first thing is that parents have to be proactive. They can't just default to what's always been done, because when we do what's always been done, we get the same result. Parents have to think, "Hey, these alternatives exist." All they have to do is Google. It's not hard to find things. But you have to be engaged. If I didn't care what my kids learned, how they learned, or the social influences they had, I would default to what was easiest—just put them on the bus and not worry about it. Parents have to think beyond that and do the research if they want the best for their kids. And there are a ton of options. My oldest daughter was homecoming queen, but she only went to the school for two hours a day. She sang in a traveling choir and participated in local pageants. My sons played on local sports teams. We picked and chose exactly what we wanted. They were in debate leagues, did mock trials, and one of my sons even took welding classes from the local school district. We encouraged them to follow their passions. Some things didn't work, and we just pulled them out. But some things were great, and the other kids would want to do them, too. And you know what? None of my kids have gone to college because they haven't seen the need to. They followed their passions, went an alternative route, and saw that book learning wasn't the only way. They all make more money than I do—and I have an undergraduate degree, a teaching credential, and a master's. They have everything from construction to modeling in my family, and they all do really well. --- ## [29:15] The Unschooling Playbook: No Master Plan, Just Passion **Ela Richmond:** From a practical standpoint, how did you and your wife introduce your kids to enough things to expand their palette and help them find their interests? Was there a master plan? **Dave Hoffman:** We were the most unschooling homeschoolers that ever existed. If it looked anything like school, we threw it out the window. We defined schooling and education very differently. Anything that looked like real education, real learning, and passion, we fostered. It wasn't a master plan; it was about being around like-minded people who would do their own research and share what they found. Once you get involved in that realm, there are so many opportunities. Our plan was to encourage a growth mindset—the idea that if you're bad at something, it's only because you haven't done it long enough or tried hard enough. My son thought math wasn't for him, but he found a curriculum called Teaching Textbooks that helped him a ton. He ended up getting a B+ in college algebra, a class I never passed. He found something that worked for him. Not one of our kids did the same math program in high school; we just let them do what worked. My kids consumed library books at an insane level because we never pushed them. All their Sunday school teachers worried because they couldn't read at age six. We'd say, "We're good. They'll read when they're ready." And they all started reading around seven or eight, and then they never stopped. They still read tons and learn on their own. Sometimes, doing things a different way pays off. --- ## [33:23] Fearless Parenting: Why We Weren't Afraid to Break the Rules **Ela Richmond:** A lot of families are afraid of that unpredictability. When you homeschool, you bear the full burden of responsibility if your kid doesn't turn out "correctly." Why were you and your wife so comfortable with what many would consider risky choices, like letting your kids read on their own timeline? **Dave Hoffman:** First, it was probably my wife's personality. She's a Pippi Longstocking at heart; if she had her way, we'd be gypsies traveling in a tent. She's fun-loving and carefree. I was more regimented and left-brained, always thinking we needed structure. But then I learned that kids hate being forced to do anything. It's human nature to rebel. So we just decided to set things out there for them and let them make their own decisions. We just weren't scared about how it would turn out. We had a lot of support through our homeschool community and saw other kids thriving. Our kids interacted with everyone just fine; they were almost *too* social. There was just no fear that it wouldn't turn out right. People, especially teachers, would worry. They'd say a homeschooled kid has "gaps" in their learning. But who says algebra has to come before geometry? My son wasn't great at textbook math, but now he does construction and uses laser-leveled excavation, calculating things that actually mean something. He's great at solving problems. If you teach kids to solve problems, you don't have to worry about the textbook learning. I work with grown adults right now who can't think past, "What do you want me to do on this?" They can't create a strategy because they've learned how to learn differently—they've learned to be told what to do, and they're good at that, but not at solving problems. --- ## [38:05] Breaking the Box: Why the World Needs Problem-Solvers **Ela Richmond:** It's fascinating because the requirements for work have changed the way we approach school, and vice versa. We've created a system that values predictability, putting workers in boxes where they are told exactly what to do. The result is that we're missing out on developing crucial skills, like the confidence to take a risk and bear the responsibility for a decision. Instead of confident individuals, we have kids who can check boxes. **Dave Hoffman:** Oh yeah, my kids are super strong and confident. They might be wrong, but they're confident they're going to succeed. I've learned that at Google, they offer 20% of an employee's time as innovative time to work on anything they want. That's where the "Search Inside Yourself" emotional intelligence program came from—an engineer wanted to solve that problem. He eventually left and now makes millions. That came from an innovative approach that says, "You don't have to work in the box." I fight that at my work all the time. I work for a big institution, BYU, and because we're big, we're not always agile or creative. We have set policies, and I buck them all the time on behalf of the customer. Just yesterday, I gave a 14-year-old a scholarship for a university course. That's against policy. But this was a foster child who was going to age out of the system without much of a future. If she could take some college classes now, it might show her she's intelligent enough to get an education. So, I bucked the policies, got the kid the scholarship, and she's starting a psychology course this year. I did the exact same thing in public school. I'd just bust through the fences. If you can talk people into it and show it's better for the kids, a lot of times your superiors will say, "Let's try it." And a lot of it worked. --- ## [41:10] The Future is Flexible: Final Thoughts **Ela Richmond:** That's a great place to end. What are you working on now, and where can people find you? **Dave Hoffman:** I work for BYU, and we have an online high school and a middle school program. We also have a program called BYU Flex, which is a concurrent enrollment program where kids can earn college credit while in high school. It's a great way for them to get ahead. My son did it and started college with 30 credits. We have students from all over the world taking these classes. My advice to parents is to trust your gut. You know what's best for your kids. You're the one who tucks them in at night. Don't let anyone—not a teacher, not a principal, not a school board member—tell you what's right for your child. Do your research, find what works, and don't be afraid to do something different. It's your kid, and you're in charge. -